[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to Expanding Your Faith, a podcast that tackles modern day issues with a focus on spirituality, with Bishop Greer-Godsie, Reverend Mark Trim, and Bishop Ben Williams. Thanks for listening. Take a breath, open your heart, and let's expand your faith together. [MUSIC PLAYING]
Hello, everyone. Welcome to this edition of Expanding Your Faith. I'm Bishop Greer, and joining me tonight is Reverend Mark. Greetings, everybody. And Bishop Ben. Blessings to all. Tonight, we're going to talk about not putting people on pedestals and still honoring those who deserve it. Before we get into that topic, I would like to say that if you'd like to listen to any of the past editions of the podcast, you can do so at podcast.myocci.social.
podcast, or wherever you get your favorite podcast from, an Apple podcast is now fixed. So they are updating on Apple podcast. The church has a long painful history of putting leaders on pedestals and an equally long history of those pedestals collapsing, sometimes taking a lot of people's faith down with them. So this is not an episode about against honoring people.
disciples of proper honor and honor given rightly to elders, to those who labor among us, to spiritual mothers and fathers. The problem is not honor itself. It's when honor becomes idolization. And we see a lot of that sadly nowadays. There's a real learnable difference between genuinely honoring someone who deserves it and elevating a person's to a status scripture reserves for God alone.
The church needs to relearn those differences. We've got a lot of those pastors that people hold in those positions of God like honor, not just pastors, but politicians as well, that people put on pedestals that should be reserved for God and God alone. So one of the questions I want you to hold on to as we go through the podcast is can you deeply admire someone's ministry legacy or gifts and still hold space for the fact that they are flawed human beings?
at the same time without either one of them canceling the other out. So hold that deep within yourselves as we go through the podcast. So what does scripture say about honoring people rightly? Well, honor is commanded, not optional. And 1 Timothy 5 17, for example, says let the presperters who lead well be treated as being worthy of double honor scripture explicitly commands honoring
those who lead and teach well, which there are plenty of pastors out there that do that without expecting any kind of special honor without wanting to be put on pedestals. And so they are rightly leading Hebrews 13 7. Remember your leaders who have spoken the word of God to follow their faith. Consider the sober outcome of their behavior. This is a biblical instruction to follow somebody's teachings to follow their example.
If they are saving rightly following scripture, doing what scripture says they ought to do. And that's not just to be sentimental. That's showing them true honor for the work that they've done. The instinct to honor people who poured themselves out in ministry is not a problem. Scripture assumes and commands it and Reverend Mark honor does have a ceiling. It does. We're given those instructions to notice those that labor notice those that are
doing the will of Christ in the earth and then responding, blessing them, helping them, coming alongside them, possibly making life a little easier for them to do their job and recognizing them. But we see in the New Testament in the book of Acts, a couple of examples where Peter was approached by Cornelius and Cornelius worshiped or attempted to worship at the feet of Peter. And he refused him and said, no, you get a
that not worship because he felt that was reserved for the way Christ was worshipped. Those would come to Jesus and worship at Christ's feet. And we also see Paul and part of us were after they were performing miracles and doing the work of the ministry that others tried to offer sacrifices to them. That's in Acts 14. And they were resistant to it. Why?
Because it's important for us to recognize that we are to honor individuals were to give recognition were to help them in ministry. But at the same time, we have to also remember God empowers us and the strength comes from on high. And that level of worship or that level of honor of submitting so strongly to another person is belongs to God to the divine. And I've watched
in my unique in my background of the charismatic Pentecostal circles. I've watched both ends of the spectrum, in my opinion. And so we have to remember that with the works of the gospel pouring through us, that while people may thank us and buy us dinner here and there or bless us on certain days, it's important to keep in perspective that we are mortals. We are
people. We sub our toes with the best of them. We get maybe a little overly excited in traffic. And we do have flaws that we're trying to grow out of. That's very true. Absolutely. And I know when I stub my toe, I say some things that are probably not terribly. Yeah. And Bishop men, there are some of the greatest figures in scripture. We're shown to have those very same type of flaws. Yes, there is.
You look at the scriptures, and you look at the characters that have been put on the pedestals and have those flaws. You think to yourself, how can you do that to better your life and better what you're doing in ministry? How do you show people around you, not only the congregation, but people in the community that you don't need to be on a pedestal to do what you got to do? So that makes sense. No, absolutely. We have people like David, who, well, many, many, many,
mistakes over his lifetime. Right. Being called a man after God's own heart, despite the fact that he had somebody killed to take his wife, as well as multiple other issues, scripture didn't sanitize that. It made it very clear that he did these things. They were wrong. He was punished for him, but he still lived up to a greater potential. Right. Moses, the great law giver. He was barred from
going into the Promised Land for his own disobedience. He struck the rock instead of speaking to it and indirect violation of what God had said. And that was enough to keep him out of the Promised Land. The church was built on the night Christ three times. Right. And then Paul goes after him for his hypocrisy and relations too. And still, Peter is considered one of the great founders of the church.
So the fact that the Bible refuses to even airbrush over these things is itself a theological statement. God can work through really flawed human beings rather than manufactured icons. It kind of reminds me of the whole practice in Japan. When you break a glass or a plate or something, they feel that they repair it by mending it with gold. And those types of
are greatly sought after because they show character. They show that it has served his purpose and continues to serve its purpose even after being so badly damaged or broken. And that's very much the way we as faith have to look at those who lead us. Well, and like the example of David, you have somebody who goes out, makes a splash on the scene, kills the giant, you know, the armies of Israel,
the word spreads, and he becomes a hero. He becomes famous and King Saul hated him for it. And so what happens is that fame goes throughout the land. David was a scripture, very handsome. And you've got that going for you. Plus, you've done this big, great thing. And sometimes people overlook the flaws that you have because, hey, you're the slayer of giants brought Israel to a great point.
And so on and so forth. And that kind of happens over with churches, sometimes when the pastors or the leaders stand in faith and sometimes it's pure faith. Sometimes it's, you know, work real hard and build something and come in and they're owed and they're awed by the things are. They don't see the struggles. They don't see the behind the scenes stuff. You can get up there and speak eloquently or very familiar with the charismatic
speeches and the Pentecostal speeches, having him from that background. And a lot of times those ministers will take other ministers up to under their wing and teach them the methods of how to woo and draw crowds. And I'm not saying that if you're an excellent communicator and you can bring people in and captivate them with the stories of the gospel and scripture that you're wrong, you know, wants to listen to someone boring. One wants to listen to somebody
that can't tell the story, you know, the person that tries to tell the joke but forgets this is punchline, you know, it's no good. If you can't tell the story, it could argue if you can't get to the point. And so no one's saying that. But what I'm saying is we have to be careful that even in like the sense of David, he pushed through, he stood in faith, he was used by God. But at the same time had some severe character flaws even with his push, you know,
accomplishments that can be the same thing with pastors. You get up on Sunday morning, bishops, y'all get up on Sunday mornings and you expand upon scripture. It's something no one's ever heard or you bring new light to something they've heard a hundred times. And they're excited about it. They're bought about it. It's very important. And I try to make this a practice. It's very important that I instantly respond with, you know, gracious to show us and to help us. At me, it's about
pointing people back to the source of the revelation to say that the pastor should be, you know, side eyed all the time because he's great, but he's probably a terrible person underneath or something wrong. I've watched churches. They put pastors on pedestals. They pay on exuberant amount of money. And then I've seen other churches where the pastor works their tails off and the church, you know, it's actually a former abuse
going on, barely pay them, barely recognize them, don't recognize them, pause to say thank you, you know, wrong too. And so it's important for us, though, to remember that even with all the excitement, there can be things that the preacher, the minister is struggling with personally as with David, as with Moses, you know, have histories. God graces us beyond that. And we try to bring people to
place a grace that we are, but we have to remember that we honor those people, but we can't worship those people. Absolutely. 100%. And I think that's a good point about accountability. You're saying is essentially accountability, making sure that you're remained accountable for, you said, pointing people back to to God who gives the grace, who gives the
strength, the ability to communicate and things of that nature. Well, I mean, it'd be perfect. And sometimes our congregations want us to be perfect. That's right. Absolutely. And it's comforting to believe that someone has it all figured out in a podcast. Like a person who doesn't have to wrestle with hard questions themselves, if they just have somebody who gives them the simple answers, right? The pastor, Bishop, our favorite podcast host tends to give them comfort. Not how often do we have people
come in and seek our guidance, but they really want us to tell them what to do. Well, yeah, absolutely. And it's not one directional and actively resist honest information about a leader's flaws, because it's easier to keep believing in the Polish version. He, Katharina, says, Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. is a great example of that. You want to polish over the fact that he suffered from depression.
was known in some circles to have on his wife. He still did great things as a civil rights leader. And as a powerful force for change in a time when our nation needed change. For a lot of people, it's easier to believe the Polish version and leave out the fact that he was also human. He made mistakes. He was not perfect. And I think that the fact that
fact that he was able to accomplish so much being an imperfect human being is a far greater story is exempt from temptation. Not Dr. King, not me, not anybody on the podcast panel or in listening to the podcast. None of us are perfect, but God still finds a way to use us. And sometimes the way he uses us, the platforms that he gives us can also accelerate the problem of putting people on pedestal, right, Bishop?
Yes, sir. Correct. And many of the podcasts create content creators across platforms. When you see them all the time on different platforms, many names where you see the different creators that are highly obscene, that have all the stigma and the spotlight. They got all the fanfare. What is that in reality? That's putting them up on so high on a pedestal that they really messed up and they fall off.
I thought you were perfect, but you put them on that pedestal. I tell people in my congregation, especially the ones I'm serving now, please don't elevate me to the pedestal because we fall off and not disappoint you. Then you're going to be hurt and disheveled and then what? It's the only one that should be on the pedestal should be Jesus Christ and the Eucharist. That's how we should do it. And sadly, the bigger the platform, the more insulated,
leader can become correct. People actually close enough to tell them the truth. And I imagine that's the case of people like Joel Olstein and Paula White and some of the others is they've become so insulated because they're so high profile. They believe their own press reports. They do. The press releases. That's right. And the people around them are too afraid to tell them the truth for various reasons, whether it be because they may lose their standing in the community or
or they may lose their power or prestige themselves for speaking the truth to these leaders. And it requires us to remain accountable to one another and scandals involving these beloved characters, these beloved leaders often do more damage than just that individual's reputation. It frequently damages people of faith all around them and anyone who's attached themselves to that
leader. Right. Bishop, I want to go back to something you just said just a second ago. You said that it's important for us to remain accountable to one another. The thing that I learned, I don't know if it probably I learned it early because I pastured first before very young age and I knew nothing. I started at 22 before you started education. And so
relied heavily on people that knew more than I did and was encouraged by a few people that I had confidence in. They said, you know, those put people around you that know a little bit more than you do about particular areas your weekend. And I have continued that practice even, you know, I'm 20 plus years of ministry to where I'll seek counsel from people that I, their opinion about what I'm asking, honor them by
putting weight behind what they have to say and asking them questions and effectively communicating. What do you think about this? I'm thinking about doing this. And I'm not talking about asking everybody. I'm talking about putting again, this is a form of honor when you go and talk to those people and say, hey, what do you think about because you see something in them, that particular area that is, you know, is wise. And so I think it's important for us as ministers and people in leadership positions
to step back and say, I don't know everything. What am I missing? You know, surround yourself with people and, you know, they've had experience, particularly life experience and ask them their perspectives on something. Now they could be totally wrong and hear their perspective and it sometimes you may not learn what to do from them, but you can learn what not to do. But again, it's humbling yourself and reminding yourself that you're not always right, even though that you may be
in my God for a particular task. It reminds you that there's other ideas that God puts out in the world beside yours. And there's a reason why we're called the body of Christ is because we have many members and there's much that we can pull from. I know that's a little bit off topic, but I just had to throw that in there. Well, not necessarily. I think it's actually very much on topic because by utilizing that kind of humility,
and drawing from the experiences of others, it helps to protect us from being too prideful. It also helps us not to end up on a pedestal that will collapse and then hurt the faith of others around us. So I think that that's very much on topic with what we're discussing this evening. And we also need to remember to honor people without erasing their humanity. Learn from their legacy.
just mentioning a moment ago. You counsel from other people around you in season three, or season 14, episode three, rather, I'm sorry. We talked about Troy Perry and Bishop William Brothers. We honored them on the show for their real courageous and foundational work in their two areas of ministry. And the healthier posture was to give them gratitude for what they built and how they're
their lives and how many lives they changed alongside of the fact that they were still human beings. Made mistakes. They had blind spots, but they still managed to do great good for the kingdom of God. And so, Reverend, what does it look like to honor someone like Troy Perry's legacy at MCC without earning him into a figure beyond question or critique? He's important to step back and say,
we received to go forward with, you know, relevant today. The answer, of course, is yes. And then what does that look like for us today? You know, we accomplished that today. That for some first and foremost, I think is how we honor the person is by taking that vision that you feel God placed not on a on a person for the world. In other words, it wasn't just unique to them. It was meant for the world because I think there's things that God
does and we see that through scripture where God does specific things for specific people in a specific time. And then there's things that God does for humanity as a whole. And so, you know, someone like Troy Perry that is a humanity as a whole does is God's message of inclusion. God's message being the most vulnerable that have been outcast is that message still relevant today and should it be from the highest rooftop?
And so, I think that's the answer is yes, because the queer community, we carry that on and the answer is yes, which it doesn't look like how do we do that? You know, just methods and ways that you reach people because you know, to do things with a, because the church was founded in the 60s, you're not going to do it with a 1960s mindset of reaching people. You're going to use every tool like we're doing right this second media, reach people.
greatest ways to do it is by finding a way to make sure that that message doesn't die out or become, you know, its impact. Absolutely. And the same is true of Bishop brothers. Have to look at him critically in today's light. The reality was he was sometimes very abrasive person towards people. Not the best way to reach people, but
still manage to reach a lot of people and help them even in the midst of that. And so, we understand that not every figure in our faith journey is perfect. Honor can hold complexity too. Idolization cannot. Idolization requires a flattened, simplified version of a person because the whole system collapses the moment
flaws there it is, didn't that right, Bishop? Yes, sir. And you know, I've had my issues when I was young in ministry and didn't know what I was doing. And I thought, hey, I was trained and I was better than everybody. As soon as I learned real quick, you know, it has a flaw and my flaw was thinking I was good at it. And I really wasn't, I had to learn from the other people that were teaching me how to be humble and how to be the correct priest. I needed to be to minister to the congregation without looking like a
fool and embarrassing myself. And that was a hard pill to swallow when I was young. I imagine that a lot of clergy go to that step of look at me. I'm up here on the stage. I'm up on the platform looking good. You know, I think our remarks had it best too. And a couple of podcasts back. We had to have humidity. You had to be humble. Absolutely. And so what's a practical test for telling the difference? Honoring someone and idolizing them. A useful question.
For any leader mentor or influential figure, can the person be corrected? Can they be questioned? If they are shown to be wrong about something, is there actually a path for that to be named and addressed? I mean, we've all known leaders who the moment they get corrected a question, they fall completely apart. And as someone myself who who deals with that on a regular basis, I can tell you I'm always
being corrected and questioned. And it gives me a moment for introspection to say is what they're saying actually true. Is this who I am? And someone who is set themselves up on a pedestal cannot look at themselves in that proper light. If the structure around a person makes correction unthinkable or impossible, that is pedestal forming. Regardless of how good their content or ministry looks like from the outside.
Yeah, that's unfortunately something that we see a lot amongst many of the media preachers amongst those that have mega churches and pastors seen as disloyalty. And it's seen as something that requires you to be addressed either from the pulpit directly or to be called out in front of people in the church. Yeah, 100% agree. I had a situation a lot of years ago or whatever where I had reached out
to somebody that I had mentored very early on in my ministry. And this was an air. This is a example of thinking we're better than we are. And I am 2324, whatever it was at the time, your old minister thinking that I could be for people and help them in ministry. And I believed in the person's calling. I believed in the person still do. I was not ready for that level. The thinking I was
better than I was and try to reconnect to that person they lashed out at me. And that was 20 years ago that that actually happened and listing all the stuff that I could say was I'm sorry for that I was stupid, but I'm not that same person. And it had a lot of, it's very difficult for me to read that in for rebuke, but I also had to remind myself I'm not that person.
I'm not that individual anymore. I have fallen flat on my face many times. And the one thing that I had tried to teach that individual was humility because they were very gifted, they were very smart. And I said, well, you know, reading all that stuff. I thought, well, that was one lesson I guess that didn't take just yet.
And so what does this mean for how we follow leaders today? Well, as we looked at false prophets in the gospel of read a few episodes ago, we talked about Paula White and Mike Murdoch and how they've been able to operate unquestioned for so long, which is exactly this type of dynamic. Their platforms and their personas became pedestals that made ordinary accountability feel impossible or even disloyal. Of course, now in white work,
I think it's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do. And I think that's a great thing to do.
That's a good question. I think that even Reverend Mark and you have said it in the past. And it shows you hold yourself accountable is by making yourself open to the community you serve and being a crystal clear book instead of closing the book open. It's really you can see what you're doing instead of having a close up persona. To show you your fruits of your ministry. Show what you're doing. Be accountable for the stuff you bring into the parish.
Be accountable. And also have a kind of partners. They could say, Hey, you're not being accountable. This is what you need to change is how you fix it. But also people like Paula White, Joel's team. The reason why they don't have accountability is because people have put them up so far from the pedestal that nobody can reach them. And it's hard to hold people like that accountable. Plus they don't want to be held accountable. So very true. It also helps to have counsel or a board
that keeps you humble. 100%. Anybody who has worked in parish ministry and has had to work with a council or a board knows that most of the time they will help you remain very humble. Well, you know, I put myself out there because I've been getting this several times. I was joined the OCCI. I was new to the church and didn't know the actual inner workings of how people were going to react to certain things. And Mr.
didn't have to reach out to me and say, Hey, you need to polish up and fix. So you won't look bad, bad upon yourself as a ministry and the church. And he had to help me out figure out what I was doing wrong. And when I realized that I was humble because I was easy. It was a learn where I made my mistakes. And I was grateful for that for him to reach out to me and say, Hey, you're doing this wrong. Let me show you what to do the right way. That's so important. So what can listeners do personally, Reverend Mark? Well, the one thing is,
after reminding ourselves that the person that we're following listening to the human and they are going to step their toes here and there, we have to remind ourselves of that. We also have to step back and say, you know, I ever hear this person talk about, you know, they overcome. Do I ever hear this person talk? And I know that that's not accurate. You know, you know, in some seminaries, they teach you not
to reveal certain things. I think there's a balance, you know, tell my, my intimate dark things that I'm really struggling with from the pulpit. But I think it's important for us to share and show people that we're human. If there's one thing that I hear often that people give me feedback and it has span for about the 20 years that I've ministered, it's that, you know, try to ground it for us and that you
invulnerable. There's some, that's kind of where I've been because I think, you know, well, God put me in this position to be in front of people. And I have to show that I have things that I'm working on. There's a balance there because you still have to lead those people. But I think it's important for congregation to know that, you know, we're God's people of faith and power and everything.
that we are still questioning things and we're still asking God to direct us and to help us. And it's important to relay that. So that's one thing that I would encourage listeners to do is, you know, a person, you mentioned some of these big names earlier, if they're always talking about all the stuff that they have and how awesome they are and all that kind of stuff, I want to pause and just quickly ask the spirit, say, you know, that good, that goodly, is it righteous to go from there?
You know, if we're willing to throw scripture out over convictions, then we probably have an issue. Absolutely. And a reminder too that ultimately there's only one figure in the Christian story that was meant to occupy a pedestal and he refused it. Two, six through eight talks about Christ as being the one who even though he was God, emptied himself taking on the form of a servant, you know, and
so the deepest theological reason not to idolize any human leader is not cynicism about people. It's about the fact that it's the space that's supposed to be reserved for Jesus, for God. And no other human being, no other human leader, no matter how worthy they are of our honor can that or should take that place. Instead, they should be pointing away from themselves and towards Jesus. So just a quick recap.
What we've covered tonight, you know, honoring people well and idolizing people are not the same thing. And scripture consistently models leaders who accept honor while refusing or fusing worship. The healthiest posture towards any admired leader or mentor or public voice of faith holds two things at once. Real gratitude for what they've built and an honest willingness to see and name their human looking. Any final thoughts, Reverend Mark?
Well, I think we have a real problem in our society right now of people because we have such failed leaders surrounding us and because we have failed leadership around us and even that leadership doesn't show respect towards one another. We have terrible examples, but I think it's important for us to step back and say there are some people that are with good hearts trying to do what's righteous and right and holy
and gracious. And when we see those people, even if they're not flashy, even if they're not in the mega churches or whatever, that we should step back, thank them for what they're allowing God to do through them and find a way to be gracious to them. That just encourages them. You know, the greatest things in the New Testament is to encourage one another. That's how the body of Christ stays healthy in my opinion.
final thoughts. I covered it very well, but I wanted to add this one more little caveat to that. We're going to discuss pedestals. I want to remind people that just don't put the pastor on the pedestal when you're in church. Put the one that needs to be on the pedestal and that's the Lord. He's supposed to be foremost in center of the church, not us. And hold us accountable. Hold yourself accountable. Hold everybody accountable. Don't put anybody on the pedestal because when they fall off, they get people.
They are themselves, certainly. And I didn't my all of our listeners to apply these tests we've given you to their own and my figures, including us, not that we're your admire figures, but including us here on this podcast. The Reverend Mark and Bishop Ben for being here tonight. I so appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you to everyone for joining us tonight. As always, you can reach out to me at Bishop God see at my
sce.org or by visiting our St. Francis dot org. And of course, our archive of podcasts is at podcast dot my O C C I not social and at Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast from. We record these episodes live every Saturday night at 8 p.m. Eastern time on you now.com forward slash Bishop Greg and on TikTok at expanding your faith until next week when we once again attempt to expand your faith and talk about the beatitudes.
We hope that you all keep shining bright. Thanks for spending this time with us on expanding your faith. If today's conversation encouraged you, share the episode. It helps more people find the show. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts and you can also find us online at podcasts dot my O C C I dot social and our St. Francis dot org. Follow us on Facebook at expanding your faith.
Our producer is Bishop Ben Williams. Expanding your faith is an outreach ministry of St. Francis parish and outreach in Augusta, Georgia. Produced in cooperation with the Metropolitan Community Church of our Redeemer in Augusta, Georgia. Until next time, keep expanding your faith.